#torrentgate
Apr 10, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
Yesterday, I removed the direct download links from the CrunchBang Linux download page, meaning CrunchBang Linux is currently available to download via BitTorrent only.
In passing, I mentioned that I had done this on Identi.ca and what was tagged as #torrentgate followed (thank you diablomarcus). I tried not to get too heavily involved in the conversation, mainly because I had numerous SSH sessions on the go, but also because while I love Identi.ca, I do think that the 140 character limit can sometimes inhibit constructive conversations.
Anyhow, I am really interested to know what, if anything, people think about offering BitTorrent only downloads for CrunchBang. If you have an opinion on this subject, please post a comment.
Personally, I think that moving to a BitTorrent only distribution method is a good thing. My reasons for thinking this are:
Community involvement: members of the CrunchBang community can easily get involved to help keep the distribution healthy (Jeremy is a fine example of this)— seeding torrents is much simpler than trying to provide a HTTP mirror.
Reduced costs: bandwidth is shared by the users who want the files, meaning the CrunchBang servers use less bandwidth, which reduces their costs.
Increased redundancy: once a torrent swarm has started, there is no real need for any centralised storage, so it should not matter if the CrunchBang servers go nuclear, again.
Automatic scalability: coping with demand for new releases has traditionally been a real headache for the CrunchBang project. By removing the direct downloads, anyone wishing to obtain a copy of CrunchBang will have to use BitTorrent. This should mean that swarms will grow to accommodate demand when new images are released.
Regarding any negatives, fabsh made a valid point regarding internet servers providers who restrict BitTorrent traffic. I have absolutely no knowledge about such matters, so I would be interested to know if anyone has any real facts and figures, such as which ISPs do this and how popular they are, etc. If you have any knowledge on this subject, again, please leave a comment. Thank you. :)
34 responses to “#torrentgate”
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Apr 10, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
I remember taking part in this survey on which ISPs block BitTorrents and when a while ago: http://broadband.mpi-sws.org/transparency/results/
Apr 10, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
@David, brilliant, exactly what I was looking for. Thank you. :)
Apr 10, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
For me this is not really an issue, I can use torrents. So basically, if this is only way to go atm, that’s the way it is. Obviously hopefully there would be direct download option also for those for a reason or another can’t / don’t want to use torrents in future again.
Well I’ll keep seeding the torrent files.
Apr 10, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
Happy to support bit torrent distribution, I downloaded all your current versions to seed for others and did notice that the xfce versions took some time longer to fully download.
As long as the community gets behind it it should work well for most.
Apr 10, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
@Hanna, I am more concerned about those that can’t, rather than those that won’t, and according to the information provided by David, those that can’t seem to be very few, thankfully:
@Neal, interestingly, your observation of download speeds for the Openbox and Xfce versions matches these stats: http://crunchbanglinux.org/downloads/statler/stats/ :)
Apr 10, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
Well i think its a good way to go, concidering that the hosting is basically free.
Apr 10, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
@Fredrik, I am not sure if I made it clear, but the CrunchBang servers will remain online, acting as seedboxes. The cost of these machines will remain the same as before, but at the moment that is better than the alternative, which is to purchase/rent more hardware. :)
Apr 10, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
I always use bittorrents anyway, I think it’s a great way to go to distribute the load. As for those that are restricted…. there are always other alternatives like buying a CD and that type of thing.
Apr 10, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
I think that identi.ca conversation pretty much says it all with only one voice complaining about the decision. As long as the piggies are still there acting as seedboxes I can’t see what the problem is. BitTorrent isn’t necessarily harder or more of a hassle. It’s just different which kind of fits nicely with CrunchBang :)
Apr 10, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
Hi i think that torrents are good thing but some ppl will go away if they see that there is no direct download, or they dont use torrent .. but there is a lot benefits as you said ..
Well I’ll keep seeding the torrent files, thats no problem :)
Apr 10, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
@jrobb, agreed, BitTorrent is great way to distribute the load. :)
@omns, agreed, the conversation was quite one-sided, but I think it is important to fully explore the topic. The link that David posted in his comment has really helped. :)
@RastaSheep, thanks for seeding, your help is really appreciated! :)
Apr 10, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
This discussion is moot as long as CrunchBang doesn’t have the resources to do HTTP.
If CrunchBang had the resources, it would also be moot: I’m sure corenominal would offer HTTP if he could.
Apr 10, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
Hi I like the idea of torrent only unfortunately as I have had to change isp here in australia I wont be seeding the files myself. With my old isp they didn’t count uploads into your monthly limit so when I was with them I left everything I downloaded seeding indefinitively unfortunately my new provider does count uploads and I’m already having to micro manage my downloads to stay within the bounds.
Some users wont download with torrents as they have never used them before & have no idea what program works with them & they have only heard bad things about bittorrent from the print/tv media. Most of those people run windows the few that don’t are happy with ubuntu. I think the majority of people who choose crunchbang will know what a torrent is and be more than happy to get their iso’s that way.
Apr 10, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
@Nathaniel, do not worry about seeding, it is definitely not a requirement! :)
Apr 10, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
I approve of this initiative, bittorrent is the future of large file distribution. Seeding for great justice :D
Apr 10, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
@Col, you approval is appreciated, as are your seeding efforts! :)
Apr 10, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
Where I used to live we had an asshole as administrator, he uses Microtik to share internet and he blocks all peer2peer but for himself and friends. I could get around it, but I downloaded very slow. And when he noticed it, I was blocked.
At my university they use Squid Proxy and only allows ports 80 and 443 out. So no bittorrent there.
I love torrents and use them all the time. But I thinks it’s important to have a direct download option.
Apr 11, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
BitTorrent only distribution does cut off some users. My workplace blocks torrents entirely, even though I do download linux isos for work. Also a lot of schools completely block torrent traffic, including the university I went to.
Perhaps a solution would be to rate limit HTTP downloads to encourage bit torrent use? Or maybe finding some mirrors like kernel.org or universities to host HTTP downloads instead?
Apr 11, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
There was a direct download? Like jrobb, I too prefer to use the bittorrent version of distro downloads. It is a fairly easy way contribute to the community.
Apr 11, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
@Mike, thank you for your feedback. :)
@d-r, rate limiting HTTP downloads is something I can definitely look into. Thanks. :)
@jezra, hey buddy :)
Apr 11, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
My employer frowns upon torrent traffic, so I tend to use HTTP downloads more frequently. However, I could always download when I get home if I was willing to wait that long.
CrunchBang is important to us and so is the health of the project. The bottom line is… you’ve got what we want, and as long as you are offering it, we’ll be sure to obtain it, in whatever way possible. If HTTP becomes cost prohibitive, then please do what you need to do in order to keep the project vigorously forging ahead. :)
@corenominal, thank you for all that you do, and for all that the #! community does.
Apr 11, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
@HilltopYodeler, thank you for your kind words. :)
Apr 12, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
Unfortunately, my ISP (Singapore) is one of those that throttles P2P (I easily get more than 10,000 kb/s for http, while torrents struggle to reach 50kb/s … yes, it’s that bad) so I guess no more #! iso files for me, huh? :( . I have thought about changing ISP’ s but my current one still offers the best bundle with regards to combined phone/broadband/cable-TV/mobile-phone data plan, so I can’t really change. Torrenting has been dead to me for a while, tbh.
I’ve always tried to seed, despite knowing people wouldn’t benefit much from the measly speeds I get/give. I currently have 4 #! iso seeded, eventhough my P2P uploads are capped/throttled, so you can’t really say I’ve not done my part.
Sadly, while I understand your stance, this might mean the last of my #! iso downloads (unless you can link a HTTP mirror for me somewhere). I get blazing HTTP and FTP speeds, so I tend to only download distros that provide HTTP mirrors and don’t have the patience to bear with slow torrent downloads. I’ll still employ #! on at least one of my comps, but it’ll just be from the last iso I managed to get via http.
Apr 12, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
@Gutterslob, I am sorry to hear that. I am working on a plan to restore the direct downloads, but it may take a while. Thank you for your feedback and for explaining your situation, it is appreciated! :)
Apr 12, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
@corenominal I’m probably one of the minority, so you shouldn’t waste your time on me too much. As I said, I can negate the issue by changing telco, but the current package I have really does offer me the best balance with regards to transfer speed (my occupation requires me to often FTP very large amounts of high-res photos to my imaging lab) and international phone-calls. The throttling of my P2P/torrents is sad, but a concession I’m willing to live with.
Like I said, don’t bother if it’s just me. Since the ISOs are usually under 1000mb, you could just Megaupload them without having to purchase a premium membership (I think). Should be less of a hassle and lower cost for you, I would assume.
Apr 12, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
@Gutterslob, in an ideal world, I think BitTorrent only downloads would work, but as we know, this world is far from ideal, so I think it is important to at least try to provide direct downloads. My current problem revolves around doing it in a economical fashion. The current servers are no longer capable of handling the loads, so I just need to find some replacements. Problem is, this is proving more difficult than it should be. :/
Apr 13, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
Here’s a possible solution for those who cannot download via BitTorrent, but who have access to good-old-fashion mail service. It appears that LinuxCD.org has #! CD’s that they’d love to sell you. Just go to http://www.linuxcd.org and search for “crunchbang”. Although they only charge $1.75 for a CD, it looks like the cost is around $5 or $6 US dollars with shipping, etc. Although I have absolutely no experience with using their service and cannot vouch for their integrity, this appears to be a reasonable solution.
Apr 14, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
A minimal [net-install + script] type iso for direct download? That way the Debian repos would provide most of the bandwidth…
Apr 14, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
@johnraff, that could work. I have _thought_ about using tasksel for the package selections, but that is all I have done. Having said that, I think I prefer the shell script method, mainly because I am more comfortable with it, but also because it is probably more flexible.
Thanks for the comment, it has provided some food for thought. :)
Apr 14, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
@corenominal If you are able to find a couple of reliable http mirrors (ibiblio, kernel.org…) you can add them as webseeds to the torrent files. People with P2P throttling ISPs would then download the files using http exclusively using a recent bittorrent client (say, deluge; transmission supports this but not in the version available in Debian Stable).
This is not unheard of. Archlinux already does this with its torrent files.
Apr 14, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
@Vorbote, I did not know that, so thanks for the tip. I will look into it! :)
May 4, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
i applaud the communityness of the torrenting, but for those poor saps who dont have access to torrenting… sigh maybe a series of mirror hosts could be set up.
i’m sure there are dozens of organisations, sites, institutions etc that would gladly use some more of their server’s massive headroom to host the crunchbang isos.
May 4, 2011 (about 1 year ago)
HAi there,
My issue with torrents is that many colleges, including mine block torrents completely. I suggest putting it up on multiupload and having people check the MD5 before they run it.
-madaze
Sep 27, 2011 (about 7 months ago)
i didn’t mind this idea, and even liked this idea… until it became a problem. :/ now no crunchbang here at a friend’s house.